JeremyNicoll

CLOSED Beta 8311

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Download of new version seemed very much slower than usual (I'm in the UK), but once here the update has been smooth.  

Which Settings are no longer present?

Is there meant to be only one tab under Logs, namely Forensics?

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Hi Jeremy,

Thanks for pointing, I forgot to mention that in the changeblog.

  • Improved: Migration of the separate logs into Forensics.

 

Settings that have been removed:

  • Maximum simultaneous update connections
  • Enable/disable logging and logging limit
  • Protect PC if no user is logged on

 

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OK...  For the 'Protect PC...' setting, is the feature always on?     

[Slow download seems to be affecting other things, so is probably a local problem.]

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I would like to know why it has been decided to remove the ''Protect PC if no user logged on' setting. I always had it turned off.

If I want to show just the 'updates' in Forensic I cannot get that to happen. As soon as I start unticking some of the options via drop down arrow, all the logs disappear.

How do I do it?

The enable/disable logging removal... you don't mean debug logging ?

If you clear just logs and reset counters under Factory defaults, Forensics says I have reset settings to defaults. Surely it should say logs settings set to default? It makes it read as though I had done all of them.

 

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Hello stapp,

Quote

If I want to show just the 'updates' in Forensic I cannot get that to happen. As soon as I start unticking some of the options via drop down arrow, all the logs disappear.

How do I do it?

For me it works like this:

1) deselect everything and select Updates under the Actions list

2) deselect everything and select Scheduler under the Components list

In both cases more options will be selected, but you can deselect the ones you dont need.

 

Martin

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Hi, the update went smoothly but the new logging system is anything but straightforward. I came here to post exactly the same question that Stapp had, which has been answered by Martin. Would it be possible to retain the original separate logs but keep this granular Forensic log too?

 

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hi stapp

Quote

I would like to know why it has been decided to remove the ''Protect PC if no user logged on' setting. I always had it turned off.

What would be a reason for you to have it turned off ?

The setting "Protect the computer even if no user is logged on" is kind of redundant, as we are supposed to protect the user at all times. File Guard should always be on during boot, except when it's manually disabled by the user or not available because of freeware license.

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The enable/disable logging removal... you don't mean debug logging ?

Nope, it's the setting to enable/disable logging and the maximum records per log

As all logs have migrated to Forensics, this setting became obsolete. Forensics logging is always ON.  It's a circular log  and contains 10k records maximum.

 

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Hmm, filtering of the Forensics logs is a bit unintuitive.  The dropdown menu sort of implies, by having the Components options then Actions options that they are independent. But every log entry has both a Component and Action entry/column.     Suppose you start with everything ticked, and untick 'Updater' in the Components list.  The square next to 'Components' gets unticked, presumably implying that not all Components are now selected.  But if instead of unticking 'Updater' you untick 'Components' (which unticks all the subsidiary component entries) then the display is emptied... correctly because every log entry has an issuing Component... but not necessarily helpfully.     This also means that when the square next to Components is white, it can either mean 'all components are unticked so you'll see nothing', or 'at least one component is unticked but some are still ticked so you'll probably see some log entries'.  Maybe the white square should have a grey tick if it's in 'some sub-components are still ticked' mode? 

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If I want to show just the 'updates' in Forensic I cannot get that to happen. As soon as I start unticking some of the options via drop down arrow, all the logs disappear. How do I do it?

It's like Martin explained.
By default all components and Actions are shown.

When you f.e. want to see all updates, you just untick -Select all-, which renders the  grid empty.

You then tick the scheduler -Scheduler- component, or the -Updates- action.

When you select a component, all related actions are automatically ticked and the grid is populated.
When you select an action, all related components are automatically ticked and the grid is populated.

 

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Hi Frank,

As a 'user' if I wanted to see all updates my natural course of action would be to tick 'Updater' under Components, I wouldn't then think I have to tick something else.

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2 minutes ago, thomster said:

Hi Frank,

As a 'user' if I wanted to see all updates my natural course of action would be to tick 'Updater' under Components, I wouldn't then think I have to tick something else.

If you check a forensic record you will notice that the related component is 'Scheduler' and not 'Updater'

Component -Updater- shows app and computer restarts required by a software update.

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1 minute ago, Frank H said:

If you check a forensic record you will notice that the related component is 'Scheduler' and not 'Updater'

Component -Updater- shows app and computer restarts required by a software update.

Hi Frank, I really don't think this is intuitive - is there any chance of a re-think?

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it's just a matter of wording and how the Forensics modules and action have been setup.

You must know that all information you now see in Forensics 'always' have been there. We only added filtering.

I agree that -Updater- can be a bit confusing, but it really is the -Scheduler- component that manages the updates.

Module -Updater- manages the app and computer restarts.

So ticking the 'Scheduler' Module will show all update related logrecord.

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It's not intuitive - it's great for experts who want to find a subset of records quickly.   Somehow the ordinary user needs to be encouraged to use the Search box.  If you type 'update' there. you see every log entry that relates to updates - in my case lines like

     Scheduler    Task run skipped        Scheduled update "update every 1 hour 0 min., Enabled" skipped by Game Mode
     Scheduler     Update                        Downlaoded and installed ...
     Core               Notification               "The update process....

(I submitted this reply by mistake when I'd half-written it... and Frank replied below to the half-written version...)

Edited by JeremyNicoll
added last sentence

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already know which components do which parts of which action 

This is exactly what we avoid by automatically ticking the related actions or components.

The only issue you have is that you don't now that the module -scheduler- is responsible for update related logrecords. Which should be clear now :P

 

Quote

 So if one typed 'pdat'  one might well see everything that container

This functionality already exists when you use the seachbox

 

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Frank, the problem here is  not  that those of us participating in this discussion can't see how the new system works ONCE WE'VE BEEN TOLD, but that in the absence of any instructions on how (or if) to use the drop-down selections, ordinary users are going to be very confused.   I'd go so far as to suggest that the drop-down shouldn't even be visible unless one ticks a "Use expert view" box, or something... and ideally when that is ticked there should be some text that says "read the help pages before using this".

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I think who ever thought up the new tick box way of showing Update logs only for example should be given a holiday... soon :lol:

This is the most complicated way of showing things in EAM that has every been thought of.

If you have to be given written instructions on how to use a tickbox then the person who complied that feature has failed.

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Jeremy, it's just a filter on a logfile, no rocket science and it doesn't break anything. 

If you just click a bit , the logic will be clear.

 

 

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I dont know for others but to me it seems so easy to use, for example i have a customized Surf Protection HOST list, which block lot and lot of stuff which are all reported now in Forensic.

So i just unticked SF, then all  SF alerts disappear, which is convenient when i want to look for something else, then after i'm done,  i reticked it, then they all reappear.

I don't see any complexity in it, unless i'm too used to complicated things and i see it a child play :P

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Umbra said:

I dont know for others but to me it seems so easy to use, for example i have a customized Surf Protection HOST list, which block lot and lot of stuff which are all reported now in Forensic.

So i just unticked SF, then all  SF alerts disappear, which is convenient when i want to look for something else, then after i'm done,  i reticked it, then they all reappear.

I don't see any complexity in it, unless i'm too used to complicated things and i see it a child play :P

Well good for you Umbra for making the rest of the testers feel inferior because you see it as 'child's play'

The plain fact is the posts about this new type of logging and its tickboxes would not exist if it was really intuitive.

 

 

 

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Following up on Umbra's comment:  "I just unticked SF..."        Maybe that did work for deselecting something, but if someone tries to use the drop-down to home-in on something it's not so easy because you don't know which subtypes you need to select.  When I used the 'search' box to fnd log entries with 'update' in them, I found these types:

     Scheduler    Task run skipped        Scheduled update "update every 1 hour 0 min., Enabled" skipped by Game Mode
     Scheduler     Update                        Downlaoded and installed ...
     Core               Notification               "The update process....

Maybe (in rarer circumstances?) there will be others as well?  

On the otherhand suppose you wanted to exclude entries about updates from the display?   You could untick "Scheduler"?   That gets rid of both the "Task run skipped" and "Update" types of log entry... but maybe it gets rid of some others that you would want to see - there's no easy way to tell.     And you certainly wouldn't want to untick "Core" or "Notification" because those categories encompass lots of other things.

And, Frank...  I understand how it works.   The problem is that I don't believe that ordinary users will.  On the other hand, if you can keep them away from the drop-down box and just let them use the Search substring filter, they'll be ok.   

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28 minutes ago, Umbra said:

I don't see any complexity in it, unless i'm too used to complicated things and i see it a child play :P

If beta testers have to be told how tickboxes work then there is something wrong somewhere. It is not intuitive at all and will cause much confusion if it's released to 'ordinary' users. I seem to be saying the same thing over and over but I'm pleased you find it child's play Umbra.

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Jeremy, it's just analyzing the relation between modules and actions.

Quote

On the otherhand suppose you wanted to exclude entries about updates from the display?   You could untick "Scheduler"?  

as you can see in the unfiltered log, manual updates sit under Component:User and Action:Updates.

So if you want to filter them out, just untick the related Action or Component.

I can imagine that this new setup might cause some confusion, I just do not expect that 'Ordinary' users will use this feature a lot, as the search box will help them initially.

The new filter is a flexible way to be able to analyze the history of events, it requires some 'getting used to it' though.

 

 

 

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Another thing: good for experts, bad for rare users of the facility - settings persist.    Suppose someone has used the drop-down to limit what's displayed.  Weeks later they come back to the log display.   The drop-down summary line helpfully says "Selected components, All actions" ...  but that is presented in the same pale blue that is used throughout the GUI and there's no reason for a casual user's eye to be drawn to it.  For somebody not totally used to the display, it reads as a positive statement - yes, things are selected, yes all actions...   But the vital information - that some items are not eligible for display - doesn't come across. 

It really needs to say - and preferably not in pale blue - SOME ENTRIES ARE HIDDEN, or something ... that reminds people that an invisible setting behind that drop-down has turned off display of some entries.    Making the setting not persist might help.

Remember, in the past someone wanting to see if updates were working merely had to look at  Logs -> Update, and they couldn't accidentally turn off display of lines that mattered.  Now they can.

Whenever anyone in Support asks someone to check the Logs, they're going to have to say "and make sure that the drop-down box on the right is set to show everything".

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Quote

Whenever anyone in Support asks someone to check the Logs, they're going to have to say "and make sure that the drop-down box on the right is set to show everything".

Nope, we always ask for logs.db3, so we can analyze the logs ourselves.

 

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If I open the GUI full screen and look at the logs screen then 'restore down' the GUI to default size then  the dropdown box is not visible and I have to fiddle about resizing to get it back.

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Hmm... 'restore down'...   I tried this several times without having a problem, then it happened on another attempt.   Now I can't get the drop-down back unless I maximise the logs screen, or drag the 'restore-down' one's right-border an inch or two to the right.     (Win 8.1, 64b)

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36 minutes ago, stapp said:

If I open the GUI full screen and look at the logs screen then 'restore down' the GUI to default size then  the dropdown box is not visible and I have to fiddle about resizing to get it back.

confirmed

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Hmm.   I agree with Umbra for an experienced user like us.  But for the average user in our target audience,  total confusion.   KISS principle got lost.

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Actually after re reading this whole thread, I retract my statement.   My head is spinning.  I think this is one "improvement" that may need revisiting.

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Hi guys,

We've heard your 'complaints' regarding the forensics log filter and we just have released a new beta with an improved way of filtering.

Looking forward to you feedback.

cheers

 

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